I knew this would happen eventually. Atheism is a philosophy rejects morality, thus the creed’s appeal to rapists and other degenerates like Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs. Most Atheists don’t want to be confronted with the idea that they may face an ultimate judgment for their perfidy. The left believes that that blissful ignorance is a human right and your ability to drift through life without being criticized is the mark of civilized society.
So naturally you have a situation where this bit of insanity makes perfect sense:
AN atheist rapist has complained that his human rights were breached by having to share a prison cell with a Christian lag.
Barman Steven Relf, 40, was jailed indefinitely after admitting raping two women he targeted when he served them drinks in a pub.
Police branded him a “sexual predator” and said he could have had as many as 40 victims.
In a letter to an inmates’ magazine, Relf wrote: “I recently had the displeasure of sharing a cell with a Bible-thumping believer.”
A source said Relf was “furious” at having to share at Manchester Prison with the Christian convict and wanted him to be “evicted”.
He said: “He moaned about how the guy wouldn’t shut up about God. He said he wanted to speak to a lawyer about his rights so he could be moved cells.”
The other inmate was later transferred.
England has little interest in the rights of the women he raped. If you ask me some finger wagging is exactly what he needs. By why “subject’ a rapist to the idea that there’s such a thing as right and wrong or good and evil? I mean how would that benefit society?
Rob Taylor,
I wouldn’t say that atheism is a creed that rejects morality.
I happen to know that some atheists are in fact more moral than the majority of people who are theists. Even if the studies I’ve heard about that supposedly show that atheists tend to be more moral in general are debunked, and it turns out to be the exact opposite. Atheism in and of itself says nothing about morality, good or bad. Atheists have radically different definitions of morality. All atheism is, is a lack of a belief in any god or gods.
That said, Barman deserves far worse than sharing his cell with a Christian. But if he hates it so much, I hope the UK authorities take their sweet time.
I have to say I agree with Damien on both counts here… I know a few Atheists, and they’re good people. One in particular actually sees the lack of an afterlife (as he believes) is more a reason to leave a good mark on the world. No second chances, you don’t come back, all you have after you’re gone are the children you help bring into the world and raise and how people remember you.
In fact, he feels that Pagans have it closest to “right” of any theists.
That being said, I’ve seen where a lot of people do use Atheism as an excuse for amoralism. Just check out YouTube. There are at least a few there who think that Atheism is an excuse to sexually abuse children. Of course, there are “Pagans” who do this, as well as followers of any other religion.
This guy didn’t respect the rights of his victim not to be raped. Why should “rights” be respected? Prison is supposed to be a punishment, not a college dorm stay.
There are nonbelievers and then there are anti-theists. This rapist is clearly the latter, and the Manchester Prison is despicable for entertaining his anti-Christian bigotry. However, considering his predatory nature, it may have been safer for his cellmate to be transferred.
Jenn Q. Public,
Good point, I didn’t think about that.
Hunbug. I have known dozens of Atheists in my life and not one was a decent person. Some may have been nice or polite or fun to hang around with but none could be trusted to do the right thing because none believe there is a right thing to do.
If you had a 13-year-old daughter who would you trust them with more, an Amish couple or the Atheists couple you know who don’t believe in objective morality? How many Atheists are on Wikisposure compared to faithful people?
I think Atheists are two steps below Satanists and only one step above jihadists.
Rob Taylor,
That’s a bit a extreme. Most Atheists obviously aren’t terrorists and are far from it. Besides I’ve heard Mah29001 say he doesn’t believe in a god, and that technically makes him a atheist.
Personally, I know of a couple who is half Atheist, half Pagan… I’d leave my children with them in a heartbeat, no matter the age/gender of the children. And there are actually very few people I’m comfortable leaving my children with.
I don’t know any Amish couples. Even if I did, there aren’t many folks I’d trust more than my Atheist friend. When it comes to the safety of my children, the religious/spiritual path (or lack thereof) of the person caring for them has little impact on the decision to trust them or not.
The aforementioned Atheist, who is one of my nearest and dearest friends, absolutely believes in objective morality. Hey, he even believes in the death penalty for child rapists.
Now, if I knew an Atheist couple who didn’t believe in objective morality, they wouldn’t be allowed anywhere near my kids. But that goes for Pagans, Christians, or any other religion/path. A person needn’t be “spiritual” to be a good person. People will often use a spiritual path (or lack thereof) as an excuse to harm others, but all the people on that path shouldn’t be judged because of them. Although I do have a problem when anyone chooses to wear blinders when there is a problem within their particular religion, as you and I have both seen all too often within the Pagan community.
So many atheists I have encountered merely substitute Christian teachings and traditions with eco-religionism- Instead of a Garden of Eden where man was ejected for sins, there is the harmonious virgin forests where man did not pollute. Instead of blood sacrifice for the remission of sins, there is recycling and an effort to “go green” to show pennance. Instead of striving to reach heaven they strive to reach sustainability.
But Rob is right. For true atheists, who really believe there is no God, there is no real belief in morality since it is all relative- most are also self-absorbed nihilists and some even border on psychopathy.
Oy. Let me clear this up.
Damien- There are Atheist terrorists. The Holocaust shooter was a communist, the Tamil Tigers, who invented suicide bombing, are communists and commies are Atheists. But I’ll rephrase.
I know some Atheists and like a few. I don’t say Atheists can’t be nice people or decent enough comparatively. But Those who embrace Atheism as their creed reject the idea of a fixed morality, the idea of Right and Wrong having literal meaning outside of a cultural or personal context.
Or let me put it this way. Atheists see Islamic Jihadism as a threat to their Atheisim so we’re all on the same side in opposing it. But Atheists don’t see militant Amishness any differently. Pretend TEOTWAWKI happens and perhaps I form a little pagan village in my sub-division. No matter how un-intrusive Robistan was Atheists would see it as the same as Saudi Arabia. Why?
On a certain level Atheism is the rejection of all faith, not just religious but spiritual faith in the idea that there is a fixed Good and Evil. Like I said I’m friends with plenty of Atheists (and have been friends with Satanists) but like Satanists I don’t pull my punches on how wrong they are and don’t expect them to pull any punches with me.
If Mah is an Atheist than you got me, far as I know he’s a decent person who does a lot of good.
Dodia – Indeed but would you send your kids to a daycare that promoted Atheism? Would you take them to an Atheist funeral? My point isn’t whether you can find individual atheists who you can personally trust. I know Satanists, Wiccans and Palero practitioners who are wonderful parents, good friends etc. But the philosophy you embrace has to be the one you’re judged by. Exceptions to the rule (like the group Muslims against Sharia which I endorse and support) doesn’t make the rule false. How do you know it isn’t the Pagans good influence on the Atheist that makes the person better?
Like I said though I’m not saying that some particular Atheists can’t be a good egg, just as I don’t judge every Muslim by the actions of Jihadists. But that doesn’t mean the criticism of them isn’t valid. We critique Wicca’s slow reaction to child exploitation all the time, but I like plenty of Wiccans.
So no offense Atheists. I just don’t dig that nihilistic creed.
Four points:
First, I don’t think atheism is a “creed” for all atheists (though it certainly is for some.) Many atheists simply don’t believe in divinity. They reject the possibility of something more because haven’t had a spiritual experience that gave them unassailable proof of the divine.
Second, I think you underestimate the influence of socialization. The vast majority of children are raised in a moral context that repeatedly emphasizes the immorality of murder, rape, molestation, and other actions that cause others to lose freedom, life, or limb. It is statistically unusual for people of any religion (or lack thereof) to rebel against that socialization.
Third, in my experience, many people who aren’t religious don’t spend much time pondering the philosophical implications of their atheism. They’re simply not religious. They don’t question why murder is wrong, they just believe it, dare I say, as a matter of faith. It’s something they just know.
And finally, lots of so-called atheists are full of crap. Many believe in ghosts and other supernatural phenomena, and don’t bother to try to reconcile that with a supposed rejection of belief in the hereafter. So people can call themselves atheists until they’re blue in the face, but evidence suggests many are no such thing.
Rob Taylor,
I remember that guy who shot up the holocaust museum, you had several posts on that scumbag and yes I remember that you pointed out that he was an athiest? So what if some atheists are terrorists? Most atheist still are not terrorists.
The notion that true atheists are nihilistic is complete bullshit. Being one myself, I can assure you that atheists typically have the same definitions of life and meaning and purpose as any theist. The only difference is that atheists are able to think for themselves and do the right thing because they know it to be right, not because they fear the final judgment of an invisible man in the sky. I’ve met hundreds of atheists and not known of any who fit the descriptions that some of you are throwing up here. They are typically more mature, level headed and sincere than any theist I’ve come across. Remember, when an atheist helps you, it’s because he/she wants to.
The only thing I will concede about atheists is that we tend to be more cynical and distrustful of others, but that’s only because we spend so much time rolling our eyes at the stupid things people do in the name of religion.
And just because the guy in the article happens to be an atheist doesn’t at all prove that his actions are the norm. Type ‘atheist rapist’ into Google and this is the only article that will come up. Type ‘christian rapist’ or ‘muslim rapist’ and note the difference.
So please stop stereotyping atheists simply because you can’t fathom or comprehend why we don’t believe in your so called god.
“The notion that true atheists are nihilistic is complete bullshit. Being one myself, I can assure you that atheists typically have the same definitions of life and meaning and purpose as any theist”
Not at all. In a Atheistic universe no person’s life has any meaning at all. Life has no objective purpose if you don’t believe in a purposeful universe. Whether you live tomorrow or not is literally meaningless in a Atheist universe, whether or not you hare a good or bad person has no consequence beyond not societal punishments. You by definition cannot have the same sense of purpose or meaning in living as a religious person even though you may believe you define things in similar terms.
But you tell me, as an atheists what purpose does your existence serve?
“the only difference is that atheists are able to think for themselves and do the right thing because they know it to be right, not because they fear the final judgment of an invisible man in the sky”
But what is right and what is wrong? In a atheistic universe right and wrong are necessarily subjective in that there is no objective moral order in the universe. I know an atheists who proposed that collecting small amounts of child porn was not morally wrong. I believe it is evil to masturbate to what are essentially the crime scene photos of children being sexually exploited. His view is that once the actual criminal has been caught there is no harm in some other pervert having the photos as long as the victim never knows. Using a purely Atheist structure of reality how is he wrong?
The point is that when right and wrong are subjective there can be no morality. As an atheist what consequence do you face for murder, rape or stealing if you are able to avoid law enforcement? Guilt? What about people who feel know guilt?
Your view is also simply anti-Christian posturing (cribbed from Anton LaVey’s The Devil’s Notebook) that ignores the diversity of religious experience. You’re arguing against Judeo-Christian theology, not being a Christian I have no interest in that.
“I’ve met hundreds of atheists and not known of any who fit the descriptions that some of you are throwing up here. They are typically more mature, level headed and sincere than any theist I’ve come across. Remember, when an atheist helps you, it’s because he/she wants to.”
This is a lie. I’ve met and worked with hundreds of Atheists (I lived in NYC after all) including working with members of The Ethical Culture Society and all tended, like you,to use atheism the same way fat chicks use goth. It’s a way to pretend you’re better than others while allowing yourself to claim the mantle of a victim even though any victimization you face is purely a reaction to your douchebaggery. I’m glad you found a way to make yourself feel superior to others but claiming you’re morally superior to all religious people based on a weak grasp of one or two religions is hardly mature or level headed. It is a pretension and a childish one at that.
“The only thing I will concede about atheists is that we tend to be more cynical and distrustful of others, but that’s only because we spend so much time rolling our eyes at the stupid things people do in the name of religion.”
In other words you’re a holier than thou misanthrope who acts like a teenage girl. Why can’t we all be so mature and level headed?
“And just because the guy in the article happens to be an atheist doesn’t at all prove that his actions are the norm. Type ‘atheist rapist’ into Google and this is the only article that will come up. Type ‘christian rapist’ or ‘muslim rapist’ and note the difference.”
Perhaps you should try typing in Communist rape. Or how about not looking to Google as your source for information. You know “hundreds” of Atheists why not ask them why rape is wrong in the long run. Not whether or not they dislike it, but why rape would be wrong.
But the reality is that you are very much like the person above in the sense that your identity is tied into claiming religious people are worse than you. I use him as an example of this pretense taken to its comical extreme.
“So please stop stereotyping atheists simply because you can’t fathom or comprehend why we don’t believe in your so called god.”
Yet you stereotype religious people. I’m not a Christian but you assumed I was. I have written at length on why I think Atheism is attractive to people so I can indeed “fathom” the great mystery of non-belief.
You also have no idea who or what I worship but I don’t care to convert you. My only stance on atheists is that your theory that you’re better than me because you’re and Atheist is bullshit.
Rob
“Not at all. In a Atheistic universe no person’s life has any meaning at all. Life has no objective purpose if you don’t believe in a purposeful universe. Whether you live tomorrow or not is literally meaningless in a Atheist universe, whether or not you hare a good or bad person has no consequence beyond not societal punishments. You by definition cannot have the same sense of purpose or meaning in living as a religious person even though you may believe you define things in similar terms.”
Essentially, what you’re saying is that the monotheists, polytheists, shamanists, animists and freaking scientologists, regardless of how differing their views may be, have a purpose in life and that makes their lives fulfilling regardless of the outcome?
And when a religious man commits a crime, it’s his own fault, but when an atheist does it, it’s because his atheistic ways don’t provide moral guidance?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think essentially this is how you view the world – A globe populated with directionless idiots save for a few who claim to have been guided by a higher being or beings, and so those that follow them find ‘purpose’ while those that don’t continue to wallow in an obscure, meaningless existence. Am I hitting the nail on the head?
Let me tell you my purpose, or at least the various purposes I have had up to the point I’m at today. As a child my purpose was to study, make my parents proud, and try my best to ensure that whatever actions I take do not hurt others. Today, my purpose is to work hard, support my family, and try my best to ensure that whatever actions I take do not hurt others. It doesn’t always work out, but I think my purpose is very clear, and it has always been my own free will that guided me. My parents who are Christian have never been able to get me into a church more than once.
The only reason you think like that is because you’ve been force-fed ‘guidance’ your whole life and now fail to think on your own accord. An atheist doesn’t ‘not’ question his actions and the implications they might have. You have simply made that assumption. Let’s face it, there are 2 types of evildoers in this world – those that do evil and those that do nothing to stop evil. One of my purposes and the purpose of many other atheists is simply to not fall into either of the above categories. Does not having a religion to guide us make that purpose any less meaningful?
The rest of your post does nothing much but attack the fact that I used the word ‘god’ to summarize all religions. My mistake – yes, should have tried to use a more general term as I was trying to refer to all religions, and fair enough they don’t all have a single god. Should have tried to use more examples.
Your mistake – assuming I’m only talking to you. If I was, I would have addressed you. I have no greater distaste for Christians than I do for Muslims or Taoists or whatever else. If you think my post stereotyped religious people, then by all means keep believing that. I can only apologize for the lack of clarity in my post.
Communist rapists? What evidence do you have that Hitler or Stalin weren’t religious, when most of their work indicated belief in the Christian god? And why even bring it up? Communism is far closer to religion than it might be to any atheistic movement (not that there ever was any). A large bunch of people blindly following the rule of a single person? Sure, Saddam and Hitler were clearly running iron-fisted atheist regimes.
Anyway we’ve both taken this out of context. My post was only meant to dispel any notions that Atheists cannot be trusted because they don’t serve any purpose other than their own. You going with your philosophies on a purposeful existence and meaning of life cannot change the fact that both atheists and religious people are wholly capable of both good and evil acts, and should take individual responsibility for all of them.
“Essentially, what you’re saying is that the monotheists, polytheists, shamanists, animists and freaking scientologists, regardless of how differing their views may be, have a purpose in life and that makes their lives fulfilling regardless of the outcome?”
Yes.
“And when a religious man commits a crime, it’s his own fault, but when an atheist does it, it’s because his atheistic ways don’t provide moral guidance?”
Not necessarily. No person has ever lived up to the standard set by their faith (which is indeed part of the point of faith from a sociological prospective) but also some religions require criminality. I didn’t say all religions were good or morally equal, but that faith gives people a structure to discern good and evil more precisely than the often random dictates of secular law. Europeans regard high taxes on successful people as just, Americans don’t. But all religious people consider necrophilia wrong. In secular society necrophila is often not even illegal (I was shocked to find after doing a post on someone abusing a corpse)
Except the Aghori but that’s different, they practice the “left hand path” thus embrace wrongness as a path to divinity.
“Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think essentially this is how you view the world – A globe populated with directionless idiots save for a few who claim to have been guided by a higher being or beings, and so those that follow them find ‘purpose’ while those that don’t continue to wallow in an obscure, meaningless existence. Am I hitting the nail on the head?”
No, that’s not what I said at all. That’s what you claim that I think.
“Let me tell you my purpose, or at least the various purposes I have had up to the point I’m at today. As a child my purpose was to study, make my parents proud, and try my best to ensure that whatever actions I take do not hurt others. Today, my purpose is to work hard, support my family, and try my best to ensure that whatever actions I take do not hurt others. ”
Why? None of this benefits you at all unless you are simply so emotionally needy you live to please others.
“It doesn’t always work out, but I think my purpose is very clear, and it has always been my own free will that guided me. My parents who are Christian have never been able to get me into a church more than once.”
The why proudly throw around your secularized Christianess? I myself am not a Christian (and certainly not a Calvinist) so have little interest in how hard you work.
“The only reason you think like that is because you’ve been force-fed ‘guidance’ your whole life and now fail to think on your own accord.”
Actually I grew up in a non-religious household. Then I converted to Wicca, discovered it was a fraud and became the more generic Pagan. I do practice various forms of Witchcraft. You assume I was raised religious because, as I put forward, your Atheism is simply a pretension tied into anti-Christian bigotry.
“An atheist doesn’t ‘not’ question his actions and the implications they might have.”
Never said that.
“Let’s face it, there are 2 types of evildoers in this world – those that do evil and those that do nothing to stop evil.”
There is no “evil” in an Atheistic universe. That’s a subjective value judgment based on Judeo-Christian morality.
“One of my purposes and the purpose of many other atheists is simply to not fall into either of the above categories.”
You’re presenting Atheism as a faith rather than a creed of disbelief. Why would Atheists all have the same “purpose?”
“Communist rapists? What evidence do you have that Hitler or Stalin weren’t religious, when most of their work indicated belief in the Christian god?”
Asinine. I’ve read the writings and speeches of both. Stalin held a Marxist view of religion and made Atheism the official stance of the Soviet union, Hitler railed against Christianity and the idea of one god, and rounded up the pagan revivalist there to send them to camps. This is history you can in fact read. The one religion Hitler liked was Islam, but only because it embraced anti-Semitism. You could read this all in Mien Kampf or you can continue to simply make up facts about what they believed.
“Communism is far closer to religion than it might be to any atheistic movement (not that there ever was any). A large bunch of people blindly following the rule of a single person? Sure, Saddam and Hitler were clearly running iron-fisted atheist regimes.”
Surely you aren’t claiming Marxism is not Atheistic?
“You going with your philosophies on a purposeful existence and meaning of life cannot change the fact that both atheists and religious people are wholly capable of both good and evil acts, and should take individual responsibility for all of them.”
Indeed.